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Post by possom on Mar 3, 2007 13:49:50 GMT
I have 2 children, a boy and a girl. The boy is 10 and has always had problems with learning. We didn't realise until this week just how bad although he's just below average as far as the school is concerned. We had a conversation about distances "how many metres in a kilometre?" he guesses, he also doesn't know anything about weights, or how much a dozen is! It then went on that he doesn't know how many weeks are in a year or how many months are in a year! It seems as though these things were covered years ago and as he didn't pick them up at the time the schools just continue with their curriculum and assume that the children already know all of this. He has good self-esteem by the way so these things don't actually bother him!!! Anyway, another day we tried to teach him about oct meaning 8. ie there are 8 sides on an octagon, so how many legs does an octopus have? He said 9. I am wondering whether his problems stem from cross lateral thinking problems, I just read about this on a piano newsletter. It seems that if he knows something he knows it, but has no logic to use that information for something else. Has anyone any experience of these particular learning problems and any books or help that we can get? We have parents evening next week so will talk about it then but with the schools so focussed on SATS I really don't think they'll have the time or resources to help him. Thanks in advance
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Post by mitch on Mar 4, 2007 22:47:01 GMT
Gosh possom, I don't envy you with this one and approaching schools.
I do think you are right in as much as your son should be more capable than he is at his stage of learning.
I am surprised the school has not picked up on it and mentioned something to you before. That concerns me as I just wonder how much the school likes to brush under the carpet!I think you have to be quite firm in what you want the school to do, and don't let them fob you off.
I would make a proper appointment with the school to discuss this as parents evenings are just too short. Make sure you write everything down that you have noticed so that you can cover everything.
I know Steve had a heck of a job sorting Heidi out, which he shouldn't have to have done. Good luck. The sooner you get on to this the better. I'm sure Steve wouldn't mind giving you advice on this.
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Mar 4, 2007 23:50:25 GMT
To quote a small boy early on in my career:"I know that note on the recorder. I don't know it on the piano." I have encountered that quite often. Children frequently do not apply knowledge to different but linked areas. The worst offenders here are boys. My own son was a terror for absolutely refusing to apply lessons learned to more general contexts. I am going to act as a sort of Devil's advocate for a while. Don't shout at me. I would be guessing too. I have no idea. Just because he has been 'taught' it, doesn't mean he will remember it unless he was interested enough or it has been revised lately. I have looked up the formula several times recently and still cannot remember - and I was interested. Why on earth should he remember that? Nobody works in dozens any more. Try this test, possum, and see how you feel. I want you to feel a failure unless you can answer this immediately. Ready? How many days are there in November? I bet you went through the usual, "30 days have............" to get the answer. You had time to do so; you were not under the pressure of expectation. You are a teacher. Are you really so blessed that all your pupils remember everything you tell them without constant revision? My lot don't even remember where middle C is unless I threaten to withhold their chocs. Unless it is Ant of course, but she is different. Or Gareth, cos he has a folder. ;D Remember; just because something is rock-bottom basic to you doesn't mean a child will agree. The little sods have minds of their own. ;D Well, they won't as he is happy with himself. ;D Sounds as though they stem from making-his-mum-cross-is-fun problems. Ever thought he might be winding you up? ____________________________________________ Sorry Possum. That was fun but I can actually make some useful and helpful points. The reason I view your son's antics in such a relaxed way is that I brought up a similar son myself. People often disbelieve me when I say that Paul did nothing at all at school. They assume I am exaggerating. I am not. Paul did absolutely nothing at school; he did not even get into trouble - that would have required effort. His teachers loved him. Chris and I often tried to 'test' him in his early years of education. The fruitlessness of this became obvious early on and I can now see why. From Paul's point of view: academic failure carried no penalties; he was bone idle; he did not suffer from this bone idleness; ergo there was no need to become un-idle. It is not necessarily the case that your son is unable to make the links you describe, possum. It might simply be that he cannot be bothered. I have known lots of similar kids throughout my career. Invariably , they have gone on to live happy and fulfilling lives - one of the advantages of being 55 is that one has seen a lot of life. I will give you one message that transcends all. A happy child will grow into a happy adult. At the risk of sending you to chew the nearest carpet I will ask this. Does anything else really matter?
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Post by possom on Mar 5, 2007 9:29:56 GMT
Thanks Steve I can see exactly where you're coming from. My husband is similar and went through life doing as little as possible until I came along which is why we never worried that much with junior. I have been told that hubby turned out ok so junior will as well which has always given me hope before when i've felt down about it. He is predicted 2's in all his SATS which i'm not worried about as far as scores are concerned but I will be worried if the other children pick on him because he's below average. My son does get into trouble at school, has done since he started, not necessarily naughty stuff but extremely cheeky stuff, eg weeing in the water fountain, throwing his shoes on the roof, climbing on the roof to get aforementioned shoes etc. etc. Things that teachers don't like because it makes more work for them basically. I am getting a little tired of the teachers attitude towards us as parents, they seem to think we don't bother or care about him and that parents of ADHD children are bad parents which I know not to be the case. We watch Supernanny religiously!!! Positive reinforcement has been our life so far (until last weeks conversation!) and it does get very frustrating when you can't see any improvement. I had a call from a teacher last week asking me to ask junior to concentrate in class so that he learns more, I replied of course I will talk to him about it but if it was that easy then there would be a miracle cure for ADHD. He is a happy child, it's true that he really can't be bothered with learning anything unless it's relevant to him, (he knows all the scripts to The Italian Job 1969, and the Star Wars movies), I guess we just have to sit it out and hope he ends up a builder Oh yes, and I did know the number of days in November straight away, but then i've always been a swot with a quick mind ;D
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Post by mitch on Mar 5, 2007 12:37:29 GMT
Ah...sorry Possum. I didn't know junior has ADHD. Well, in that case, I'm not surprised either at his antics.
I thought you meant the school has done nothing, and not even investigated anything at all.
I think there are websites with information which could reassure you on alot of things, but I like Steve's reassurances.
Good luck. He sounds like a cheeky happy child to me and you sound blessed with such a sweet boy!
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Post by possom on Mar 5, 2007 15:20:46 GMT
Thank-you mitch He is a lovely lad just abit of a live wire (nothing wrong with that I know). It just makes me mad that the education system claims to be teaching our children a national curriculum that seems to let children down who don't keep up. If they struggle at key stage one they get their scores and are moved promptly on to key stage two which involves the knowledge learnt at key stage one. It doesn't seem to matter if they don't know it! No wonder children are struggling with the basics such as spelling when they're pushed forward onto new subjects according to what the government thinks they should be taught. I am concerned that there are big gaps in his education and will bring this up next week when we meet the school. Doubt there's much they can do because they have to abide by guidelines, this is what puts me off training to be a school teacher!
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Post by petite joueuse on Mar 5, 2007 19:54:42 GMT
Hi Possom, You do have my sympathies. My own son recently "passed" the local grammar school entrance exam (scoring 91% on one paper where the pass rate was 72%!!). But we don't want him in a grammar school because he can't write - and I mean seriously CANNOT write. (the grammar school entrance exam is all tick-boxes so his intelligence shines through, but put a pen in his hand and tell him to write and the end result is something akin to a reception kid!). SO he's off to a "good" comp.
Like your son, my son is a pretty happy lad - no worries and spot on when it comes to the intricate details of Star Wars, but not always interested in "school" things.
I'm also (as you may have read elsewhere!) a teacher - and I think that IS an issue. The thing is, I KNOW that CAT scores etc matter (and my son's saving grace is that his CAT score is sky-high, so the secondary school CANNOT ignore him).
Gradually I'm learning to take a backward step. Being a teacher at your son's parents' evening is difficult, especially if you think the school is being utterly wishy-washy.
What you said about your husband rang true. I honestly believe lads need to be switched on, and our current education system does anything but switch them on. I know its hard, but try to sit tight and wait for someone to find what it is that "switches" your son on. I'm trying really hard not to stress my son about his hand-writing - I KNOW he is intelligent and am therefore confident that eventually he will be OK - but I have to accept that the next 6 to 8 years may well be demoralising and painful for him and for us. And that is NOT his fault!
After 16 years in teaching I really think our system does a huge disfavour to boys in particular - its just not designed around their needs.
Go and ask the school how they are addressing your son's needs. Throw "Every child matters" at them. Does he have a 2 level discrepancy between skills? If so, insist on ESAP finding. Primary schools MUST start taking kids seriously - but in my own experience, they often don't. Be a pushy parent!!
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Post by possom on Mar 6, 2007 11:34:19 GMT
Thanks petite joueuse I wholeheartedly agree that our education system is letting boys down and that in turn is probably what's wrong with the problems in our society today! He had a mock SATS science test yesterday and because he can't write very well his teacher sat with him and wrote his answers down for him which I was pleased about, he was pleased as well, although maybe a little too proud that the reason behind it was because he couldn't concentrate for an hour! I didn't mention to him that he had ADHD for 2 years when we found out because I truly believed that if he knew about it he would play on it and that I could "cure" him. I know now that it's not the case but it doesn't offer much comfort when faced with these problems. I am hoping that we find something that switches him on, he has an interest in science but doesn't show enough aptitude in it to be even average at school, but then this could be down to his language and writing problems. He is fairly good at making things although if a tiny bit goes wrong then he can't deal with the failure and gets very upset (normal child behaviour). I guess it's just a waiting game as you said and hopefully he will find something he can do well at in time.
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Post by petite joueuse on Mar 6, 2007 12:25:53 GMT
Glad to hear teacher was scribing for your son. We've managed to get "extra time" for Frankie in his SATS - which is a bit of a nonsense, really, as an extra 30 minutes is NOT going to have much impact on what he writes or how legible it is. I think school have got a scribe for one part of the SATS (not sure which one).
Boys are such a worry, aren't they? (My daughter sails through everything with stunning ease and ability!!) Yet, at the same time, they can be such characters, too. Frankie has a really quirky sense of humour - has me in howls of laughter regularly!
Look at the men you know who are our age now - look at the successful, charming, funny, reliable, practical men - and just try to imagine what they were like as 10 year olds! Maybe we should ask Steve how he coped at school? I know my brother-in-law had horrendous hand-writing problems ...but is now designing mirco-chips. My cousin was CONSTANTLY in trouble at school (and frequently ran away!)...but he's now happily married with a family and a stunning house which he has almost built himself, and he's a deep-sea fisherman (which is what he always wanted to do). Or my brother - failed the 11-plus, went to a secondary modern, has dyslexia, got pretty mediocre results at O-level....and is now earning a lot more than me working with air-traffic control radar systems. Again and again I can think of fantastic men, who didn't cope or shine at school. I think we have to sit tight and try to be patient, giving our sons whatever support we can, but not (sadly) expect schools to have much time or understanding for them. I'm currently working on Frankie's handwriting every day - the school bought into a handwriting scheme...but they're only doing it half-heartedly about once a week (if we're lucky!). A friend who is a SENCO went on training for this same scheme and was told emphatically that if you only do it once a week it will NOT work - it has to be daily. I told this to the school who just shrugged their shoulders and said they couldn't do it. So we're doing it at home. In my own school I see too many children whose parents don't/won't or can't give them much support - our sons are lucky to have supportive parents!
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Post by mitch on Mar 7, 2007 14:56:12 GMT
Wow PJ, what a lovely upbeat message!! I shall give you an exalt for that!
I am also a bit down at the behaviour of my son at school. School's been on the phone again, and at 15 he should know better (says me). He's just messing around and with GCSE's round the corner, it has got me wound up.
Strange thing is, he is bright but can't be bothered at the moment. Aagh...scream. So you have cheered me up!!
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Mar 7, 2007 23:04:12 GMT
Wow PJ, what a lovely upbeat message!! I shall give you an exalt for that! One of the great things about a forum like this is that people can express their worries freely. Having expressed them, they suddenly discover that lots of others share these worries. In terms of kids, parents suddenly discover that their kids are actually normal, rather than some sort of freak. I feel a soapbox coming on here. Queation: Guess why the school managers have been on the phone again? Answer: Because they are not allowed to do anything about his behaviour themselves. * stands on soapbox * We cannot have it both ways. If we do not want schools phoning us every time our child gets into mischief, then we have to allow schools to deal with this mischief without worrying about us suing them. This is not the case these days. Back in my day, in the dark ages before the Children's Act, my crimes at school were dealt with at school. My parents never found out about them. I learned that there were things my parents could not protect me from; my school figured they could deal with my crimes without making a huge fuss; my parents trusted the school to do this. This circle has been broken; that is why schools constantly contact parents when their kids get up to mischief. Sad, really.
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Post by mitch on Mar 7, 2007 23:56:49 GMT
Yes, we had the 'Stock room' where it was usually the boys who got dealt with. There was also the long ruler in the corner of the room or a sharp slap across the back of bare legs ( ouch..did that hurt!). Not really happy days for a lot of the kids, especially for those with real learning problems which went undiagnosed. Steve, I want and encourage the school to ring me about his antics. I want to know what my kids are getting up to and the school are pretty good at keeping me informed. It's just a pain in the a... when you've spent time and had meetings and then junior decides not to do much about it. Anyway, sanctions have been reintroduced at home, and a long chat tonight. I think we're getting somewhere!! Wish me luck!
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Mar 8, 2007 0:00:53 GMT
Good luck.
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Post by jod on Mar 8, 2007 9:23:11 GMT
Matti does not have ADHD, but as discussed in another thread did have some behavioural difficulties. I am now pleased to say that due to setting up really open reprting channels, spending effort to make him feel needed at school and a reassuring environment at home he is now much better.
Possum it is because the school has really opened up the communication channels that we managed to sort out our son's problem. The school has been similarly open with a lovely child who does have ADHD in year 5. He is now medicated (not with ritalin) and doing really well. I have a soft spot for him and he responds well to me because I'm prepared to talk about the everyday things. I hope your school has provided a dedicatd Learning Support assistant for your son.
It does not matter what he achieves. What does matter is that you praise every little step and give reassurance. I'm sure you do that already. Good Luck
Jo
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Post by mitch on Mar 8, 2007 23:54:19 GMT
Good luck. Thanks Steve. Poor lad. School on again. Coursework far behind the others. Long, long chat with him tonight. He either needs reassurances, or he is pulling the wool over our eyes. Self esteem ...zero. He takes constructive criticism as destructive 'you're thick'. Why isn't he as clever as when he was in Year 6 juniors, he asks. Bright lad, at school with bright kids...me thinks he's feeling pressure. All I can do is reassure. I will tell the school what I think tomorrow. I hope I am not being too soft on him, but I genuinely think he has got himself in a messs and is panicking. Maybe he is very bright and can't be bothered and is taking the p*** out of school and parents, but gut feeling tells me no. Well, I've hit the Rioja tonight. It's really rather nice. Night might all. x
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