Anyone Care for an Open Discussion?

[AnotherPianist]

Futher to the thread on TOP, which is now no longer; and the thread asking about said thread, which is now also no longer, would anyone care to continue the discussion?

I'm not going to regurgitate my points in full from the last thread but I shall summarise; hopefully others will do the same as there were some intersting points there:

1) With reference to Wobby's point about general knowledge mostly being about history and not about science. Why is it socially acceptable to giggle off a lack of knowledge of maths and the sciences; but a lack of knowledge of the arts is considered to be a lack of general knowledge and the person is frowned upon?

2) Morality is relative and is influenced by those around us: it's not fair for us to make a judgement that someone is somehow morally inferior to us if their views arise from a different culture: after all, all of our opinions are formed based on the information provided to us by those around us (and their personal beliefs). Attitudes in this country were very different 50 years ago; now fortunately most (not all as demostrated by thread deletion ) have changed, but that doesn't make us morally superior we've just been introduced to the issues a in different light.

And to add a third:

3) The mention of the word homosexuality shouldn't really be grounds for the deltion of everything eveyone has said . Especially given the number of eminent composers and musicians who were/are homosexual and indeed the fact that the person who was the subject of the thread was....

Any further discussion from that thread welcome, doesn't have to be anything to do with what I've said .

And incidentally if anyone were to want to retrieve something they wrote from their browser history, the way to do it is to select work offline from the file menu (it's important to do this first or the error page will overwrite the original) and then click history and find the page.... Then click work offline again to get back on.

[anacrusis]

I very much regret not having read the thread until late - for the simple reason that I'm well over the hill thirty, and felt excluded by the title of the thread...and then when I did was annoyed by the usual patronising "things aren't what they were in my day" attitudes coming from my generation and older, grrrr.

I agree that the concept of general knowledge includes science, arts, culture, politics, religious knowledge etc - all in equal measure, and that it does seem that some sectors value more extensive knowledge in the sciences less highly than in other disciplines. I do think that so-called "popular" culture also is accorded a higher value than it merits in quiz shows etc - after all, popular culture is the most ephemeral of all...

Morality is indeed relative - and I find the condemnation of some groups of people as being morally inferior based on beliefs or activities which have no impact on other people fairly repugnant. However, I guess my own moral framework, based on the idea that it is wrong to deny to others their rights, health, property and lives, won't suit everyone, especially those groups seeking to control society towards their own ends.

The thread was very illuminating, both with regard to the appalling ignorance which still abounds "out there", and with the draconian action taken in response to the challenging ideas within it. I found it hard to believe that someone who is really very articulate could have got the subject of homosexuality so very wrong - especially given the profession of one of the parents - that depresses me, and shows me how very much we still have to learn about giving our kids a proper education on these issues, to stop classroom culture perpetuating such ignorance. And if the mods on TOP can't cope with this subject, then they probably need a bit of educating themselves - I hope they read the summary provided once the contributor in question had found out a bit more. Homosexuals make up about 10-20% of the population, depending on how the term is defined - that's a big sector of society to go sweeping under the carpet like that.

[possom]

Unfortunately I missed the thread on TOP completely, is it still there but locked?

[Steve Hopwood]

I did not read the thread - I haven't been back to TOP for a long time, so I am commenting on what I read here.

We would expect the ability to accept other moral mores to be one of the characteristics of intelligent, educated people, yet bigotry can be found everywhere. Challenging this does not always make an individual popular. My ignorant guess is that a bigoted favourite of the TOP censors complained and had the thread removed. Some things never change. ;D

One of my fundamental beliefs is that a lie is as bad\good as the reason it is told. Were I Pinoccio, I would need the buzz saw working at top notch during every piano lesson I teach. ;D Every lie is a good one, told for kind reasons.

I am 56 now, and older than all the parents of the children I teach. Parents often look to me to back them up in some minor skirmish with their offspring; often this involves children having been untruthful ir devious. It is interesting to see reactions when I describe to the child, my belief about lying.

The more enlightened ones see the point straight away. Others stiffen and I know I have seconds to get out of trouble. Mostly they relax as I elaborate to the child; often there is a dawning of light in their own eyes.

I can imagine the reactions from the more bigoted quarters of TOP contributors to this aspect of my morality. Hehe, the mischief-maker in me even considers rejoining and offering it somewhere.

Perhaps not.

[anacrusis]

The thread was removed altogether - it was addressed to the under thirties, asking if they had heard of Rudolf Nureyev.
In the discussion which ensued, there were lots of "tut-tut"s from those of my age and older about the knowledge base of the young 'uns - stupid because the young 'uns haven't been around as long, may well not include ballet amongst their cultural interests, and will almost certainly have mountains of knowledge on things which are a mystery to the oldies. The topic then wandered towards homosexuality, since that was a facet of Nureyev's life, and one young 'un demonstrated that he hadn't a clue what homosexuality really was - he did go and find out, and report back, and I missed most of the rest of the thread after that - including APs post .
There was then a thread to ask where the Nureyev thread had gone, but since it is against TOP rules to question the implementation of rules, it too disappeared.

Age of enlightenment, anybody?

[jod]

I wasn't around for the thread on TOP. But I wonder how glad TOP is about the article in today's Times re Brian Davey where TOP and AF contributers Deborah and myself are quoted supporting the use on Mr Davey's books despite him being a convicted paedophile.

Personally it shows Debroah and me in a favourable light: articulated and not bigotted. However it do get the feeling that this may not be a view point wholey condoned by the pwers that be at TOP.

[AnotherPianist]

anacrusis said:

There was then a thread to ask where the Nureyev thread had gone, but since it is against TOP rules to question the implementation of rules, it too disappeared.

Age of enlightenment, anybody?

Quite, the rule that the rules can't be questioned is quite some regime . I'm surprised no one started a further thread about where it had gone; and if that thread had been started a couple of hours later it would have survived the moderation-free weekend anyway.... What really gets me is the instant deletion on the offence taken (presumably of one) when so many people clearly wanted to discuss it. It's happened before, and I'm sure it'll happen again.

I bet there are some fairly interesting discussions going on in ABRSM HQ about the Brian Davey issue Jod. I wonder if they're regretting not deleting the original thread, they can hardly start deleting things now though. Hopefully the whole thing will not lead to even stricter general moderation now....

[anacrusis]

*confused*
Why did they close a thread called Happy 100th Anniversary Of Your Death Today Edvard! ? Admittedly it didn't seem to be going anywhere...

[AnotherPianist]

Hmm, I googled it to see what's in the google cache of the page the last time google trawled it the page was like this. Doesn't really seem that anything untoward has been removed from the middle then .

Google's cache is quite interesting actually, even if they remove threads, parts of them are still around for a while (of course it's a little hit and miss when google last accessed them), but some of the Nureyev thread is still around won't last forever though:
[url=http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:NAiA1LTqp-YJ:forums.abrsm.org/lofiversion/index.php/t25524.html+Nureyev+site:forums.abrsm.org&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk[/url]Page 1[/url],[url=http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:Ye3qwTUJw4UJ:forums.abrsm.org/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D25524%26st%3D30+Nureyev+site:forums.abrsm.org&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk[/url] Page 3[/url], Page6 and of course the 'where is it' thread.

Actually, I think page 6 disappeared from the cache during the writing of this post .

[possom]

anacrusis said:

The thread was removed altogether - it was addressed to the under thirties, asking if they had heard of Rudolf Nureyev.

I did come across it when it was first posted and spent ages racking my brain for a composer/musician called Nureyev I knew there was a ballet dancer but my brain refused to put the two together ;D

It does seem odd that TOP seem to moderate to this extent, yes there are a lot of younger members but they usually know more about what's going on than I do and i'm in my thirties!

[SuzyMac]

I remember this thread (way back) when it started! I was reasonably pleased I knew who Nureyev and was under 30. Didn't realise it went so crazy afterwards though, I missed that completely.

I think general knowledge should be exactly that - general. arts, culture, history, geography, sciences, etc. To place one above the other seems daft. I personally have reasonable knowledge, but greater in some areas than others. I've certainly been guilty of shouting at contestents on TV for not knowing 'easy' stuff. I think some people view maths as a school subject and feel there is not knowledge as such to be attached to it. I personally am horrified if someone tries to laugh off ignorance in maths! But if it isn't affecting the world, I suppose I shouldn't worry

I missed all of the morality and homosexuality issues, but generally feel you are influenced by those around you and their views. That doesn't mean those views are morally superior, but it is easy to see how that leap is made when being exposed to other views for the first time.

[YetAnotherKlavierist]

If anyone does want to know about Nureyev, there's a television programme about him on BBC2 on Saturday 22 September, 9:30pm - 11:00pm. Maybe I should start a thread on TOP to point this out .

[jod]

Thanks for the info YAP. Starting a thread on TOP about one of the world's leading male dancers of his generation, a man who influenced an art form where music is intrinsic sems a reasonable thing to do on a music forum.

The trouble is like other Gay artists their sexuality is intrinsic to who they were and we can't go discussing anything contraversial again... it might be quoted in the Times.

[anacrusis]

The programme on Nureyev was very interesting - we watched it together with our teenager (it was too late for the little 'un*, or we'd have let her too). Curiously enough I then heard a radio programme about him a few days later, which painted a rather less saintly picture of him - he certainly sounds to have had a very complex character. Perhaps not surprising since his dad tried to thump his ballet-drive out of him. What came across most of all was an overwhelming drive and talent - an ability to push himself, but also a demanding character which towed everyone he associated with along too. He certainly would have gone under if he'd stayed in the East, he was far too....er...I was going to say "bolshie", but the term seems rather inappropriate ;D.

Oh, and what a stunningly beautiful body .
I wish I saw even the occasional one as well-cared for at work . Having said that, when I was collecting one of my kids from ballet this evening, there was a guy waiting to go into the adults' class who was almost as beautifully made....

*Since she asked us if women could marry women, and men marry men when she was seven, homosexuality has hardly been a hidden concept to her - I answer questions as they arise.

[Steve Hopwood]

Behave yourself ;D