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Post by Trebor on May 28, 2006 14:46:26 GMT
I'm having an attempt at learning a couple of Bach Preludes and Fugues from WTC I. Having got my fingers (just about) around one of them, I'm beginning to think about phrasing, dynamics and suchlike. And realised I have no real idea what I'm 'supposed' to be doing. My book has no dynamic markings whatsoever, but I downloaded a different version of the Internet and its full of them (presumably editorial). So, being the resourceful, erudite person I am (ha), I looked up stuff online and first thing I came to was this which seems to discourage everything except block dynamics of loud or quiet. But reading other things, and listening to recordings, shows that pieces can sound fine with lots of effects only possible on a piano. So a couple of questions really: first, how do you think Baroque music should be played on piano - as close to the sound of the original instrument as possible, or using part or all of the piano's versatility? And if you are going to use graded dynamics and so on, how do you begin working out what markings to use where? Thanks
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Post by YetAnotherKlavierist on May 28, 2006 14:59:03 GMT
What an excellent musical discussion . I think this is one area where everyone differs. I use crecendi and diminuendi when playing Bach, not just block dynamics. The whole theory behind block dynamics comes back to the harpsichord - where one could, for instance, play on a louder or quieter manual, but only at one of those two discrete volume levels. Harpsichordists learnt to fake in-between dynamics using a few tricks: - trills or other ornaments effectively generate more 'noise' on the written note - as the note stops abruptly when the key is released on a harpsichord, finer control of articulation to develop a range of styles between legato and staccato allows for notes to be de-emphasised by making them a bit non-legato - doubling a note at the octave makes it louder All in all, harpsichordists did everything they could to give the effect of dynamics; a luxury afforded to many other instruments. The clavichord, did have a certain amount of dynamic flexibility too. As such, I believe using dynamics on a piano is reasonable, as that was the effect that harpsichord players of Bach's day were trying to achieve. After having spent a few months playing a harpsichord too, I've extended my playing of Bach to make use of various shades of non-legato and a richer ornamental vocabulary to complement the dynamics available. Editorial dynamics are perhaps a reasonable starting point for thinking how one might shape a piece. As a general rule, bring out subject openings in fugues. Try and map out the music in terms of where the climaxes are - build up to them dynamically. Which P&F are we talking about, by the way? Hope that helps.
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Post by Steve Hopwood on May 28, 2006 15:11:38 GMT
Hi Trebor Most dynamic markings in WTC will be editorial. At most in Bach's harpsichord music, you might get and occasional forte or piano marking (written out in full like that) - when he composed for a 2 manual harpsichord. A good edition will make clear what the source of performance directions are, and make a clear distinction between original and editorial. There should not be many in WTC. If you were to listen to 30 different performances of the same prelude and fugue, you would hear 30 different interpretations (you would also be insane, but that is a separate issue. ;D) These would range from the dry and 'academic' at one extreme to highly romantic at the other. Where an individual interpretation lies depends on that individual's feeling for the piece. I go for using the full range of dynamic contrast available to the piano, subject to a limit at the loud end of the range. Some passages lend themselves to block dynamics - repetition of a phrase cries out for a louder statement followed by a softer repeat. In terms of dynamic gradation, Baroque music responds extremely well to a follow-the-pitch approach: ascending = getting louder; descending = getting softer. You will grow to feel when the opposite is better; this is not often. This formulaic approach to expression sounds simplistic when described, but it works 99% of the time. Hope this helps. Steve
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Post by Trebor on May 28, 2006 15:54:47 GMT
Thanks - doubling a note at the octave makes it louder That reminds me: in the WTC that I downloaded, it had octaves at the end of Fugue 5, whereas in my AB book they didn't. I'm obviously inclined to trust the AB one, but would this be an editorial addition or would it have been written differently in the different versions of the original WTCs? (if that makes sense) Which P&F are we talking about, by the way? Prelude and Fugue 5 in D major Prelude 9 in E major (and hopefully someday the fugue as well) Both from WTC I
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Post by chocolatedog on May 28, 2006 16:24:57 GMT
Sometimes in Scarlatti he would pile notes up together - as many as he could to try to get volume! (See some of his sonatas for examples!!!)
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Post by princessmoose on May 28, 2006 16:25:31 GMT
Yes..A minor one... grrr lol
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Post by petite joueuse on May 28, 2006 17:24:53 GMT
Sometimes in Scarlatti he would pile notes up together - as many as he could to try to get volume! (See some of his sonatas for examples!!!) ....and then again, in some sonatas there are hardly any notes at all!! (some of them look really bare on the page). Can anyone give us any pointers on the difference in sound between harpsichord and fortepiano?
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Post by petite joueuse on May 28, 2006 17:29:39 GMT
PS chocolatedog - I've exalted your karma, simply because you and I were on a rating of 1!! But also because you mentioned Scarlatti !
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Post by Steve Hopwood on May 28, 2006 17:33:47 GMT
Can anyone give us any pointers on the difference in sound between harpsichord and fortepiano? * Prepares to duck * A fortepiano sounds recognisably like a piano, albeit a rather thin sounding one. By comparison, a harpsichord is a jangling noise-polluter that keyboard players abandoned at the first available opportunity. Beecham described it as, "Sounding like two skeletons dancing on a tin roof." Actually, he didn't use 'dancing', but this is a family forum. ;D ;D ;D * Ducks to avoid boot thrown by YAP * Steve
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Post by Steve Hopwood on May 28, 2006 17:36:15 GMT
PS chocolatedog - I've exalted your karma, simply because you and I were on a rating of 1!! I just did the same for you. Will do CD later - can't do more than one an hour. Steve
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Post by YetAnotherKlavierist on May 28, 2006 17:37:07 GMT
Can anyone give us any pointers on the difference in sound between harpsichord and fortepiano? Fortepianos sound like a slightly weedy cousin of our modern day pianoforte. Some find the tone richer or more colourful, owing to the wooden rather than metal frame; I find this comes at a tradeof of limiting the number of tone colours available compared to a modern piano. Harpsichords sound quite clearly plucked, not hammered; and they have a distinct key-off sound - when the key is released, and the jack falls, it hits the string and deadens the sound.
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Post by princessmoose on May 28, 2006 17:38:41 GMT
Interesting to read 2 versions of what one thinks a harpsichord sounds like .
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Post by YetAnotherKlavierist on May 28, 2006 17:42:04 GMT
Interesting to read 2 versions of what one thinks a harpsichord sounds like . Always good to have a contrast of opinions . I resisted the urge to smite though . Steve, I don't suppose you've heard a centre-plucked muselar virginal have you? It has a lovely warmth to it that end-plucked harpsichords don't quite manage. Sadly copyright prevents me from posting a sound sample here.
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Post by princessmoose on May 28, 2006 17:43:09 GMT
Interesting to read 2 versions of what one thinks a harpsichord sounds like . Always good to have a contrast of opinions . I resisted the urge to smite though . You're too nice, I wouldn't have .
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Post by petite joueuse on May 28, 2006 17:44:52 GMT
At the risk of boring you all silly..... I'm doing 2 Scarlatti sonatas in my Dip programme (yes, you already knew that!). So I'm trying to gather my thoughts on how to bring these pieces to life on a piano, when chances are Dom wrote them for harpsichord (or possibly a fortepiano). What I find hard is that I want to put a lot of "me" into the pieces - in the same way I do with romantic music. I want it to be expressive, interesting, passionate...and yet I'm not really sure what sounds best! I have a fortepiano recording of some of Dom's sonatas, and at times it all sounds a little lifeless and stale (but maybe that's just the person who made the recording?). How far can I go? Will I get slated if my dymanics seem over the top? PS to Steve - I got hold of the Mozart Adagio...and I'm working on it. Interesting piece
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