Playing multiple instruments - fingering!

[anacrusis]

Eek, I would appear to have borrowed, or possibly to be acquiring, a bass recorder. Never seen the need for one, don't play in consorts or the SRP, and suddenly one appears in my house dressed up as Unwanted Stuff from elsewhere. Have been going Ffffarp ffffarp fffooop ever since, and am finding it absolutely bizarre trying to read the bass clef - I can sort of play the piano, so can read the bass for that.....but can't do it on a recorder because I don't think note names to find a fingering for the dot on the page

[petite joueuse]

Yes, but you can cheat.

Look for a BASS clef F (second line down). On your descant, that would be a D? All you do is play a tone down, so finger a C instead of a D, and it comes out as an F - perfect! You don't need to think note names - just mentally think of playing a tone lower. Try it. Honestly, it works (and probably explains why I'm overly struggling with tenor clef!).

[kerioboe]

petitejoueuse said:

Yes, but you can cheat.

Look for a BASS clef F (second line down). On your descant, that would be a D? All you do is play a tone down, so finger a C instead of a D, and it comes out as an F - perfect! You don't need to think note names - just mentally think of playing a tone lower. Try it. Honestly, it works (and probably explains why I'm overly struggling with tenor clef!).

This sounds harder than just reading the note!

I used to play the bass recorder at school (they had a lovely wooden one) because I was the only one who could read the bass clef. To be truthful, even though it was the only wooden recorder I got to play on at that time, I didn't really like it that much because the parts tended to be boring and also because in one concert all the others got lost and I ended up playing by myself a part which consisted almost entirely of semi-breves while the music teacher carried on conducting and signing bar numbers at the others in the hope that they would join back in but not one did.

I don't remember ever having a problem with turning the dots into notes - which is, of course absolutely no help to you.

[anacrusis]

At the moment I'm muddling along with a mixture of interval recognition and knowledge of note names, but it all feels so slow. I can't do tones below notes on stave so well - I'm useless at memorising scales, which I'm sure is down to not knowing (at a conscious level anyway) what changes of fingerings I need to produce given intervals...can think or even sing the scales, but am no good at picking them out on the recorder at speed. I know I ought to do lots of exercises to improve this deficit, but life's too short, somehow...

On treble or descant, I just see the note and my fingers know what to do.

[petite joueuse]

But you see I find that fascinating, because I CANNOT for the life of me play treble. I'm totally at ease with descant and tenor on treble clef, and with bass on bass clef, but treble fingering sends me into a total spin. It just feels SOOOOOOOOOO complicated. I see a C...but my fingers have to play what they associate with a G........but they are quite happy to associate the same fingering with a bass clef C (which actually looks more like an A until I shift it down a tone).

Doesn't it make piano feel simple?

[anacrusis]

I'm still trying to work out what I do on piano - I think that that is more interval-based, though anchored by the knowledge of what the white notes are...

thinking about it, since I'm a crap pianist, I'd better not try to work out anything

[petite joueuse]

Well I'm totally crap on treble recorder, and if I don't pull my socks up, bassoon on tenor clef is going to go the same way!

[kerioboe]

anacrusis said:

I'm useless at memorising scales, which I'm sure is down to not knowing (at a conscious level anyway) what changes of fingerings I need to produce given intervals...can think or even sing the scales, but am no good at picking them out on the recorder at speed. I know I ought to do lots of exercises to improve this deficit, but life's too short, somehow...

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My (French) oboe teacher thinks memorising scales is not a very useful skill. I was playing them from memory but he insisted I buy a scale book and practise scales while reading them from the book. He said that this way you learn to associate the written note with the fingering. He recommended a scale book that didn't limit the scales to octaves but included the whole range of the instrument and starting on every note. (ie C major starting on C, then on D, then on E etc.) I must admit I have trouble keeping my eyes on the music and tend to play from memory anyway but maybe getting (or writing yourself) a similar scale book for bass recorder might help you to associate note with fingering.

[anacrusis]

I like your oboe teacher....

Just realised - I don't have a clue which is the lowest octave the bass gets written for - I know the pitch at which it sounds, but since they write music an octave up for the descant, does that mean that the bass might not be at the pitch at which its music is written?

Meantime I'm also playing treble music on it, to get used to where the fingers go. I'm going to have to move the thumbrest and find a neck strap thingie soon, cos at the moment I'm propping it on the dining room table and holding my head at a weird angle . Still, it happily wanders right up to a top G without any difficulty.

*continues to muddle along haphazardly*

[katyjay]

Anacrusis, the bass recorder plays an octave above the written note, just like a descant.

I know it's cheeky of me to make suggestions to someone who plays the recorder far better than me, but....

I'd suggest you treat it as a whole 'nother type of recorder, not an oversize treble. That way you'll learn to associate its dots with its finger patterns faster. That's what worked best for me at any rate.

As far as holding the thing goes, do get yourself a comfortable neck strap ASAP. Holding it on your right thumb will HURT (I know this, I've still got the occasional twinge in said thumb as a consequence). I know people who rest theirs either on their right thigh (which hurts my left shoulder when I try it) or cross their feet and rest the end of it on their right calf - which is both uncomfortable and inelegant.

EDIT: I should have made it clear, both the thigh and calf methods only work if you're sitting down. /EDIT

The cheap neck strap I got with my bass puts huge pressure on my neck and I end up with a thumping headache, so I rigged up a padded one that helps a lot. Of course I forget it from time to time (e.g. playing yesterday), but even the cheap strap is better than wrecking my thumb.

And I've just picked up a book on E-bay for bass recorder, called Mrs McGillivray's welcome. If it's any good as a bass tutor I'll let you know.

Cheers

Katyjay

[anacrusis]

Thank you very much, katyjay; have bought a strap thing today and will use needleworking skills to adjust it for my height, and pad it too. The thumbrest needs to go down, thank goodness, so I can experiment with a bit of cork and an elastic band until I'm sure of the correct position....then I can get the screwdriver out, hehe. I will use that more to help the other fingers to stay in the right place - unless I go mad and try to play some crocodile piece or other for the next exam, I'm not likely to be playing the bass so much. (though the noise it makes is curiously addictive, and I'm well impressed how hard I can blow before it complains )

As far as the "better player", yadda yadda goes - stuff and nonsense....you've got to be pretty good to do as well as you just have at grade 7.

*Goes to find some bass music to play on her bass - looks like it's definitely hers now ;D*

*rethinks that one as it's 1am...*

[katyjay]

Afterthought:

the music I play most on the bass recorder is the continuo parts of recorder sonatas where I've already learned the solo part.....It convinces me that there's a good reason for my indulging in playing the drainpipe bass.

[anacrusis]

I keep thinking I must look like I've got a hookah pipe thing - the instrument I've got has a crook, rather than being endcap-blown, and I keep expecting to see bubbles emerging from it.
I did try today seeing if I could resurrect an old idea I'd had of learning the French violin clef, where g' sits on the bottom stave, not the second from bottom, by getting out the Bach flute partita and trying to play that from the original flute version as if it were in the bass clef, but was confounded by the need to subtract three sharps. Playing the bass lines of my treble pieces sounds like a much better bet, and perhaps if I take it along to my pupil's house, I could give her a bass accompaniment, since my piano skills are too rusty to do her justice. That is, if her dogs don't eat me or the bass first...

Oh, boy, am I glad I don't have to learn tenor clef, or alto clef, or any of those...

[katyjay]

Oh you have a superior instrument then. I have a cheap plastic knick bass which won't do more than pianissimo however much I blast at it. But it has served me perfectly adequately to get started.

Trying fancy clefs sounds a tad too scary for me. I have played some music in alto clef on the bass recorder at actual pitch (as a last resort during a Harborough Ensemble rehearsal) but it was doing my head in, and I seriously wouldn't recommend it.....

Playing the continuo part works for me as it helps me "get" the solo part faster than if I'm trying to learn it on its own. And indeed, from time to time, my teacher plays her bass recorder while I play the treble. It works really well.

[anacrusis]

Not sure about superior - it is heavily varnished pearwood, but a school was prepared to chuck the poor thing out , and appeared to be delighted to get the few quid we offered for it. Have Googled for B&H recorders and drawn a blank - it is marked GDR but thank goodness does appear to have baroque fingering. One further problem - the crook does rescue me from having to crane my head back or extend my arms to a stiff and unmusical posture, but if I play unsupported Gs - ie finger 2 only and no thumb, the pesky thing twists round and makes my other fingers fall off the holes with the subsequent notes . Clearly playing basses is not just about the clef, then....

*glad the school wasn't chucking a bassoon out - though I wouldn't put it past them*