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Post by petite joueuse on Nov 10, 2006 11:09:55 GMT
OK, a question for wind players and/or the medics! If I don't sort out my diaphragm, I'm not going to make much progress on bassoon. I'd never realised just how physical it is to play. Currently my tuning on top notes is iffy unless I really squeeze everything I can think of (  ) in an attempt to control the notes from my diaphragm. Trouble is....I reckon stomach muscles/diaphragm control are not my forte at all. I blame it on the 2 caesareans I had 10 and 12 years ago....and middle-aged spread doesn't help!! Anyone know of any specific diaphragm-strengthening exercises I could be doing? When I practise my bassoon, I usually start with ultra-slow scales - long-held notes - this seems to be helping a bit, but is there more I could do? |
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Post by kerioboe on Nov 11, 2006 19:50:14 GMT
I felt much the same way when I started the oboe - although I had two natural births rather than caesarians!
I found breathing exercises away from the oboe quite useful. I commute about two and a half hours each way twice a week and this was the sort of thing I could do on the train or while waiting for a bus. (And also while I was cooking or any other boring activity which required no intellectual effort).
Maybe you know them already but they were things like:
- Breath in for four counts, hold for four, breath out for four and gradually increase the time.
- Breath in very slowly and feel the different parts of your lungs filling up (from bottom to top).
- Take a deep rapid breath and breath out as slowly as possible pushing with your diaphragm and keeping the airstream steady.
The last one can't be done discretly in public : take a slow deep breath and then breath out in short, fast puffs each time pushing hard with your diaphragm. Keep going until your lungs are really empty.
With the oboe like you I do lots of long-held notes both with and without dynamics (ie start pp crescendo up to ff and dimenuendo down to pp again). I also slur slowly up and down octaves.
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Post by apf on Nov 12, 2006 15:13:29 GMT
Something that really helped me work out how to use my diaphragm properly was to use my flute case (minus the flute inside it ;D). You put 1 end of the case against a wall and lean slightly against the other end so the case is balanced between the wall & just under your rib cage. Now breathe in properly & as you do so you should find that you move away from the wall. Tighten your abdominal muscles as you would usually do & start to breathe out while maintaining the support so the case doesn't fall to the ground. Not sure you can do it with a bassoon but with a flute you can play 1 long note while keeping the flute case up. If you thought you knew what support was, doing this puts a new perspective on it.....  . Oh, and remember to keep your chest up & not let it sink as you breathe out. Another thought - don't confuse support from your diaphragm with making your chest go rigid. I used to tighten my abd. muscles and my arms & chest went rigid as well. Not conducive to a big resonant sound  . But the flute case exercise helped me sort that out |
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Post by anacrusis on Nov 14, 2006 22:41:36 GMT
One thing to avoid is over-strengthening all the other muscles, especially the intercostals, between the ribs - you can use these to squash your rib cage, but it makes for a forced sound. I have three volumes of an advanced recorder tutor by Walter van Hauwe (The Modern Recorder Player), and in the first of these he has lots of breathing exercises - the books aren't cheap, but would you have access to a library copy, maybe? Women have a tougher time than men of learning diaphragm control, because men are more likely to use mainly their diaphragm muscles, women the intercostals for ordinary tidal breathing. Something to do with the fact that we need to be able to because of needing to be able to survive the splinting from any babies which come our way. Hauwe talks about panting like a small dog, or sniffing at a flower deeply without lifting shoulders, and has other exercises like lying on your back, taking a deep breath and feeling how, if you anchor your shoulders, the lower ribs move naturally up and out. Alternatively you can sit on a chair, fold over 'til your chest and abdomen are lying on your thighs, and take slow deep breaths; again the abdomen pushes naturally against the legs and you are diaphragm-breathing. Sitting up slowly whilst continuing to breathe allows you to feel what it should be like once upright. There's a lot more just in that chapter, and the only thing he forgets to mention is how to avoid being certified insane if anyone catches you doing all that. ;D After suviving being certified, try the long slow notes, and put crescendi and diminuendi in to vary the work the diaphragm is having to do. If you have a recorder, you might want to try on that too - curiously enough, my tone on the oboe got ever so much better once I'd been playing the recorder seriously for a while (but not enough to make me want to keep the former! It really wasn't a nice instrument... ) |
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Post by AnotherPianist on Nov 15, 2006 14:05:40 GMT
(but not enough to make me want to keep the former! It really wasn't a nice instrument... ) Just out of interest, and rather off topic  was it that you didn't like the particular instance of an oboe that you owned; or that you dislike the oboe in general? |
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Post by princessmoose on Nov 15, 2006 14:12:38 GMT
It sounds like a duck *shudders*.
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Post by anacrusis on Nov 15, 2006 14:44:52 GMT
It was the instrument in question. It was so bad that my teacher would give me hers to play during lessons, and the first time I played the latter, I did about four notes, stopped dead and said "Oh, wow...." My plastic Boosey and Hawkes Regent was the utter pits, and even the best oboist I knew personally couldn't stop it from quacking mercilessly.
Am thinking I might like to try a baroque one some day.
You need less support for it - so better with postnatal abdominal musculature! (feeble effort to get back on topic!)
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Post by petite joueuse on Nov 17, 2006 14:35:41 GMT
Mmmmm - this is really interesting! Thanks for all the suggestions so far, folks.
Can one of the medics tell me if my two c-sections will have had any lasting impact on my abdominal muscles (or am I just using that as a very lame excuse?)
I had coffee this morning with a friend who is an opera singer. We were chatting about breath control/muscles/abdomen etc (as you do.......) and she says that when she is "in training" for a big performance she has aching muscles all the way from one side (under arm, at waist level) to the other, not just at the front (which made me think of anacrusis' comments on intercostal muscles and breathing).
However, we did agree (as "larger ladies") that we both need to be fitter and trimmer (her, for singing, and me for bassooning). Maybe I should have taken up the cello......
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Post by anacrusis on Nov 17, 2006 14:47:57 GMT
No, the surgery should have very little affect on the muscles - they all knit back up together pretty tightly. The actual pregnancies, on the other hand.... depending on build, some women, especially if their pregnancies stuck out well forwards, will get very stretched muscles - which is why so many of us have jelly-bellies after having babies. You know how a balloon looks before you blow it up the first time, and how once you blow it up once, you can always tell it's been blown up? I do know some lucky ladies who seem to boing back to size 8 by the time the baby is 24 hours old, but most find that their abdominal muscles spend a very long time indeed in getting sort of back to normal again. Getting proper advice on how to do that is vital - doing crunches from the deflated balloon scenario is not a good idea. I'd favour Pilates classes myself, having seen how physios use this technique at my work. How would playing the cello help you to get back in trim again?  Or is it just that a comparison between your physique and that of your instrument would be more favourable?  ;D *looks ruefully at her recorders.* |
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Post by petite joueuse on Nov 17, 2006 15:46:57 GMT
No, the surgery should have very little affect on the muscles - they all knit back up together pretty tightly. The actual pregnancies, on the other hand.... How would playing the cello help you to get back in trim again? Or is it just that a comparison between your physique and that of your instrument would be more favourable? ;D *looks ruefully at her recorders.* Rats! So I have to ditch the c-section excuse and basically face up to the fact that I am not in shape! I too look ruefully at my elegant sopranino....and then pick up Basil, my trusty bass - the chunkiest of my recorders! Thing is...I really DO want to play bassoon....but I just didn't think it would involve regular, physical exercise!! (Does quick search on internet for Double Bass - much more my shape!) |
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Post by jod on Nov 17, 2006 16:00:31 GMT
Pilates certainly sorted out my stomach muscles...and a few more besides. After several years of a wobbly tummy, mine is a much nicer shape. Oh and I had one casearean and one rather tortured delivery via the normal route.
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Post by sneekymum on Nov 17, 2006 20:03:54 GMT
or you could try a bit of harmonica playing.. see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonica
Medical use
'Playing' the harmonica requires inhaling and exhaling strongly against resistance, developing a strong diaphragm, and deep breathing using the entire lung volume; It has been noted by pulmonary specialists that this resembles the kind of exercise used to rehabilitate COPD patients, more traditionally using the PFLEX inspiratory muscle trainer or the inspiratory spirometer, for instance. In addition, learning to play a musical instrument offers the advantage of being more motivational than mere exercise sessions. Therefore, many pulmonary rehabilitation programs have begun to incorporate the harmonica. |
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Post by anacrusis on Nov 17, 2006 22:45:42 GMT
oh, no, I can feel a suggestion of bagpipes coming on...  at any rate, I'm sure a few of my acquaintances would think of that one for me. |
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Post by petite joueuse on Nov 18, 2006 8:27:35 GMT
Now hang on a minute!
I'm struggling with the bassoon (get frequent comments from the family like "WHAT was THAT?")
Now much as I would love to have a toned and trimmed tum, I think divorce might be mentioned if I start up the harmonica (unless I become a closet player!)
and as for the bagpipes.......................
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