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Post by Dulciana on Oct 31, 2006 0:16:56 GMT
I'm talking specifically about the piano here. Why do so many pupils find this so difficult, and what can be done to help? I have one at the minute playing Walter Carroll's Forest Fantasies, and if there's a crescendo at all in pp he ends up at ff.
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Post by possom on Oct 31, 2006 15:31:57 GMT
I remember when I was first taught to do pp on the piano I was told to feel the weight of the keys first. Pick any note or chord and just weigh them down really gently until you get sound, if you just go for it straight away you'll either get no sound at all or a plonk, that's how I approach it with my pupils, not sure if this is what you need help with though.
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 31, 2006 16:05:49 GMT
I'm talking specifically about the piano here. Why do so many pupils find this so difficult, and what can be done to help? I have one at the minute playing Walter Carroll's Forest Fantasies, and if there's a crescendo at all in pp he ends up at ff. In my experience, the ability to 'feel', judge and execute appropriate dynamics rarely happens naturally; only the most talented do this. I play to my kids all the time. I play them their new pieces. When they have been working at something for a week, I will listen to them play it and then play the piece to them. "Spot the places where yours and my playing sound the same; spot the places where they sound completely different" - that sort of thing. I play phrases to the kids, saying things like, "Listen to how good a crescendo sounds here............... Now you try it." What I am doing all the time is exposing them to high-quality playing (well, high-ish, anyway ;D), trying to expand their horizons and encouraging them to think musically. Rarely does a student reach grade 5 standard without becoming an independent musical thinker. There are those whose playing remains intractably flat and dull; they are usually the ones whose personalities are inclined to be the same. ;D As to pianissimo, to the definition 'as soft as possible' we ought really to add 'under the circumstances'. The ideal room size for my Yamaha 6' grand would be at least twice the size it is. A really soft pp is impossible to achieve; a relative pp is the best we can do. I can produce a better one than my pupils because I have stronger fingers and therefore more control over what I am doing. My solution to overdone dynamics is always the same; I repeat back to the pupil what he or she has just done, then point out that I found it just as unpleasant\comical\inappropriate. They usually take the point I am making and modify the sound, especially after my usual, "Do listen to the sound you are producing, dear. If you do not listen to it, I fail to see why anybody else should either. Me included."
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Post by jod on Oct 31, 2006 16:13:37 GMT
I normally compare cresecendi and diminuendi to using a dimmer switch to control a light rather than a switch. The emphasis is on the word "gradually" not loud or quiet.
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Post by caz on Oct 31, 2006 19:58:20 GMT
They usually take the point I am making and modify the sound, especially after my usual, "Do listen to the sound you are producing, dear. If you do not listen to it, I fail to see why anybody else should either. Me included." I like it!
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Post by kerioboe on Oct 31, 2006 21:07:39 GMT
I have no experience of teaching but don' t you ever have pupils who can play quietly but not loudly?
My piano teacher used to complain that my natural dynamic range on the piano was ppp to mp with the odd mf when he insisted I play as loud as possible. He spent several years trying to teach me how to play fortissimo (he never succeeded). Conversely he used to say that I was the first pupil he had ever had who could do a good crescendo from ppp to pp.
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Post by princessmoose on Oct 31, 2006 21:10:54 GMT
I used to be like that. All throughout the last year of 6th form when I started sax my teacher used to say "stop playing everything at a quiet dynamic", quite amusing when I got my recital report back - "now work on pianissimo range" . When I went back to see my old teacher she was like " so last year you couldn't play loud, and now you play loud but can't play quiet" ..heyho sod's law.
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 31, 2006 22:14:18 GMT
I have no experience of teaching but don' t you ever have pupils who can play quietly but not loudly? Oh yes, and there is nothing I have found that works with them. Relative dynamics to the fore with a vengeance here. ;D
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Post by kerioboe on Oct 31, 2006 22:19:59 GMT
I used to be like that. All throughout the last year of 6th form when I started sax my teacher used to say "stop playing everything at a quiet dynamic", quite amusing when I got my recital report back - "now work on pianissimo range" . When I went back to see my old teacher she was like " so last year you couldn't play loud, and now you play loud but can't play quiet" ..heyho sod's law. Well at least you can feel you've made some progress! When I first took up the oboe it was loud by necessity. One day it suddenly clicked how to play quietly. At my next lesson my teacher was somewhat bemused to discover that having discovered how to play piano I seemed to have lost the ability to play forte! In fact this is not quite true - I can still play forte but only if he is playing with me. Clearly a psychologcial and not a technical problem as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by Dulciana on Nov 2, 2006 1:47:17 GMT
Just some random thoughts.
I responded to a thread on TOP earlier about learning on a keyboard, and mentioned an 8-year-old I have who's doing LCM Step 2 in a couple of weeks. She practises on a keyboard which is not even touch-sensitive, yet she can get good dynamic contrasts on my piano, including gradual crescendos and diminuendos. How can this be?
I was wondering if it could be because she hears the music in her head and transfers this automatically to her fingers somehow, in order that the imaginary music becomes a reality...? Her fingers being an integral part of the whole "feel it/play it" thing?
"Well, obviously" is the obvious answer, but she has no means of practising the techniques required for this at home. Does this mean that your ears and your inate musicality are your most important tools in playing expressively? And that all technical explanation as to HOW to physically do it is a bit of a waste of time??!!!
As for how to play softly, technically/physically/however you want to describe the action required - I find it easier to get a sudden contrast if I come down on the note(s) from above, rather than be sitting with my fingers in contact with the notes; if I do the latter I risk shallow touch, as in no sound at all, or inconsistent tone. Long running delicatissimo/pianissimo passages are different, and sometimes I find it easier if I flatten my fingers a bit - you know, the thing you always tell your pupils not to do in the earlier stages...
Any other thoughts?
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Nov 2, 2006 13:00:50 GMT
Just some random thoughts. Random thoughts maybe, but good points nonetheless. I often have to teach kids who practise on insensitive keyboards. I have also taught umpteen kids playing on acoustic festering heaps with the tonal qualities of a lawnmower, who still play with remarkable musicality when they come to me. I have often asked how they do it and they mostly say the same. They learn what to do in their lessons, then 'pretend' during practice - pressing harder for louder etc. Rather than listen to the sound of their instrument, they listen to the sound in their imagination. That way, they are prepared, willing and able to reproduce these sounds when they play to me. Hehe. I suppose this selective listening should make me adapt my favourite, "Do listen to yourself, dear. If you don't listen to yourself, you cannot expect anybody else to, either." It sould become, "Do selectively listen to yourself, dear. If you don't selectively listen to yourself, you cannot expect anybody else to, either." ;D I spend little time doing this. I prefer to approach it from the angle of making the right sound; if the sound is right, then the movements required to create it must also be right. The two exceptions I have to this are: right at the start, when I am encouraging (often fruitlessly) spiky-fingered beginners to adopt and retain a decent hand shape; when I want someone to start using their arm to control singing tone. This brings me neatly to......... That sounds as though you are using your arm to control the tone rather than your fingers. Finger-control is less reliable. Have you thought about how the middle finger is our natural melody finger (Chopin's idea, not mine)? If not, try this: Take a piece where the RH has mostly slow-moving melody notes generally unencumbered by playing part of the accompaniment as well. Allow the pedal to do all the sustaining work and play the melody entirely with your third finger, controlling the sound with the weight of your arm every time. The effect is astonishing; the extra 'ring' in the tone is wonderful. Inevitably, at some point a child will recoil in astonishment and say accusingly, "You are only using one finger." That gives me the opportunity to explain briefly and sow a seed that I will encourage to flower at a later stage. Piano technique is only wrong if the sound it produces is wrong. If flattened fingers are what it takes to produce a rapid pianissimo, then flattened fingers are what you use. If the piece has a lot of black notes, then the fingers are going to flatten naturally anyway. There is a lot of nonsense talked about curled fingers, especially in the early stages of learning. An individual's natural hand shape is achieved by resting the hand on the lid over a closed keyboard and relaxing. Some hands will have more curled fingers than others, so to artificially change this position is merely adding extra tension to the playing position, which then encourages the spiky-fingered brigade. When it comes to piano playing, natural is definitely best. ;D
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Post by possom on Nov 2, 2006 13:10:08 GMT
Just some random thoughts. Random thoughts maybe, but good points nonetheless. Piano technique is only wrong if the sound it produces is wrong. If flattened fingers are what it takes to produce a rapid pianissimo, then flattened fingers are what you use. If the piece has a lot of black notes, then the fingers are going to flatten naturally anyway. There is a lot of nonsense talked about curled fingers, especially in the early stages of learning. An individual's natural hand shape is achieved by resting the hand on the lid over a closed keyboard and relaxing. Some hands will have more curled fingers than others, so to artificially change this position is merely adding extra tension to the playing position, which then encourages the spiky-fingered brigade. When it comes to piano playing, natural is definitely best. ;D I so agree with you Steve! Anyone who has watched Horowitz play would also agree
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Post by Dulciana on Nov 2, 2006 16:07:01 GMT
[quote author=stevehopwood board=teaching . Have you thought about how the middle finger is our natural melody finger (Chopin's idea, not mine)? If not, try this: Take a piece where the RH has mostly slow-moving melody notes generally unencumbered by playing part of the accompaniment as well. Allow the pedal to do all the sustaining work and play the melody entirely with your third finger, controlling the sound with the weight of your arm every time. The effect is astonishing; the extra 'ring' in the tone is wonderful. [/quote] This is really interesting; this is how I usually start teaching pedal technique - i.e. third finger plays something slow while the foot and ear learn to do their thing - but I've never heard that before about tone. I see in my crystal ball some experimentation on this later on! Thank you!
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Post by anacrusis on Nov 2, 2006 18:19:33 GMT
A very interesting thread - I noticed that our kids' first teacher seemed to be able to teach them how to do pianissimo playing without telling them "how" at all, too - they also seemed to do naturally what was needed by simply thinking the sounds correctly...probably why I won't ever make a pianist. Think about the "how" too much.
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