|
Tempo
Jun 25, 2008 13:52:07 GMT
Post by Dulciana on Jun 25, 2008 13:52:07 GMT
Can anyone tell me what exactly allegro would have meant to Handel? I nearly came to blows with a flautist the other day. He told me he'd be playing at around 102 crotchets per minute, but turned up for our one and only rehearsal before the concert playing at about 130. I can't remember exactly which sonata it was, but it had four movements (I think), was written as a recorder sonata, and this was the Allegro. I told him that there was no mission of me plying with him at that speed, and he played unaccompanied. And I must say I thought the performance sounded completely fraught, with no sparkle, and lacking in any direction. It was like a race to the finishing line. Is there such a thing as 'correct' tempo for a Handel Allegro? Or does it depend on personal taste (up to a point, and depending on what's within the performer's capabilities to execute well...)? Or am I just inadequate...?
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 25, 2008 14:21:56 GMT
Post by anacrusis on Jun 25, 2008 14:21:56 GMT
I'm lousy at metronome markings, having only managed to learn to use one to help my sense of rhythm over the last five years. Allegro though shouldn't sound frantic - some baroque interpreters, seeking to compensate for an unbelievably pedantic style of playing early music favoured by mainstream orchestras in the 1940s-60s, have taken tempi too fast, in my opinion. Quantz gives approximations of pace for lots of different tempo markings, none in terms of metronome marks, and all relative to each other, but an allegro is not a presto, and even presto needs cautious interpretation, as it apparently varies over the timespan we put Early Music into. Starting with andante as being what it says on the tin, walking pace, and stepping up through the various speeds to allegro, your description does make me wonder if your flautist might be going too fast...Can you remember the key of the sonata, by the way? *wonders if she's played it*. Karl Münchinger and the Munich Bach Orchester - their Handel sounds like bad aural porridge with chewy lumps in. Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert ? that's better .
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 25, 2008 22:51:28 GMT
Post by Dulciana on Jun 25, 2008 22:51:28 GMT
The sonata was in F - I forgot to mention that! The 'accompaniment' - if I'm right - was really for instruments of the day - a continuo? (What does this mean?) There was also a figured bass; would this have been for a keyboard player to realise at sight? What I was supposed to be playing, anyway, was the continuo, and I'd had to practise a fair bit to play it at the speed he originally told me he wanted. How anybody could play from a figured bass at 130 crotchets per minute (or, in fact 13 crotchets per minute...) I really don't know!
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 25, 2008 22:59:42 GMT
Post by anacrusis on Jun 25, 2008 22:59:42 GMT
"continuo" is the catch-all phrase for any sort of accompaniment which contains the bass-line harmony for the sonata; harpsichord, and/or cello/bass viol and/or chamber organ, and/or lute or theorbo. There's an over-the top YouTube video of a recorder player getting the whole shebang to accompany him playing a wonderful Telemann trio sonata - the harpsichord is playing an obbligato part -in other words, one written out by the composer and designed to be the other soloist - and the rest are playing the bass, I think. Figured bass was usually all that accompanying keyboard players had available to them, and yes, they improvised the right hand parts (and filled in the left) eek. *goes to look up sonata*
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 25, 2008 23:13:09 GMT
Post by anacrusis on Jun 25, 2008 23:13:09 GMT
OK, looking at my copy of the only Handel sonata I have in F, there are two allegro movements, one in common time, one in compound time (12/8). The former could go at crotchet=130, but it'd take a pretty competent player to pull that off without sounding rushed: 102 would perhaps be on the sedate side, but perfectly possible, musically speaking. I think I'd probably be playing it nearer the 102, but a shade faster.
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 25, 2008 23:30:41 GMT
Post by Dulciana on Jun 25, 2008 23:30:41 GMT
This was in 4/4 time. I think you're probably right that 102 was a little conservative, but the speed he played at made most of the semiquavers a blur. I wonder if the recorder, rather than the flute, would have been different? Whatever he'd played it on, I couldn't keep up with any degree of confidence, anyway. The bass-line just seemed too random for my left hand, and the phrases too long for my eye/brain! Incidentally, something that I don't think soloists consider enough is accoustics. A very resonant instrument in a very accoustic building means that clarity will be lost by the best of performers once they exceed a certain tempo.
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 25, 2008 23:44:04 GMT
Post by anacrusis on Jun 25, 2008 23:44:04 GMT
too right - listen to this one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXgcDY90B5o&feature=related second part here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGJNyC1rnBg&feature=related(YAP and AP will recognise it - YAP and I have busked through it a few times; YAP does rather crazy things with the harpsichord part.... ) And it demonstrates nicely the business of too much continuo You're also right that the recorder would probably sound less muddy than a modern flute, though the baroque flute could probably manage a faster speed, being a dryer sound than the silver one. The other thing to say is that modern keyboard realisation of bass parts vary enormously - older ones from the 40s to the 70s tend to be over-stuffed with notes, often dreadfully chord-heavy, turgid and over-complicated to play, especially when accompanying a recorder. My husband has had to thin a few such accompanying parts out considerably .
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 26, 2008 9:12:36 GMT
Post by Dulciana on Jun 26, 2008 9:12:36 GMT
:DAll good fun! I must say I prefer the sound of the recorder to the flute for this sort of thing; it's so clean-sounding.
So, tell me - the continuo that's written out in full below the solo part and above the figured bass - would this be Handel's own, or an editor's?
Thinning out seems like a good idea. Two things for my 'put down to experience' list if there's a next time: 1/ Get given more than a few days to practise, or refuse from the outset. 2/ Thin out from the very first play-through!
(I can't simplify things once I've learnt them; I find it just as hard to unlearn the notes that are complicating the issue as to learn them. They're sitting there looking at me saying 'play me'.)
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 26, 2008 10:25:03 GMT
Post by jod on Jun 26, 2008 10:25:03 GMT
I'm using the Quantz maxim that Allegro means I can single tongue the semiquavers. Or at least thats the speed I'm aiming for in my Handel a minor recorder sonata.
Being an Oboist where double and triple tonging is notoriously difficult, I can single tongue quite fast, which means that I'll probably end up being lazy introducing it on the recorder.
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 26, 2008 12:14:22 GMT
Post by anacrusis on Jun 26, 2008 12:14:22 GMT
I never did learn double tonguing on the oboe, but would say this - it's worth learning on the recorder, as you can get a much more mellifluous sound, and it helps massively with stamina. T-K is way too harsh though - most use d-g, and I use Quantz' even softer d-d'll; I can take it really pretty fast (for demisemiquavers in van Eyck variations for instance). When I started, I couldn't do this as quickly as single-tonguing, which made it frustrating to learn, but now it's second nature.
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 27, 2008 9:29:17 GMT
Post by Dulciana on Jun 27, 2008 9:29:17 GMT
Who's Quantz?
|
|
|
Tempo
Jun 27, 2008 10:30:32 GMT
Post by anacrusis on Jun 27, 2008 10:30:32 GMT
He wrote a treatise on playing the flute in the 18th century - but it is a lot more than just how to blow and wiggle fingers - he covers a lot of baroque performance practice, and has lots to say about the roles of all musicians of his day, and on subjects such as ornamentation too. It is a seminal work - I particularly like it though because it is very easy to dip into - lots of shorter chunks. The section on ornamentation is germanically thorough - I have never methodically worked my way through it but keep thinking I ought to . He even discusses how to organise an orchestra, and talks also of learning to appraise musical skill.
|
|