Boring Scarlatti question!

[petite joueuse]

For the Scarlatti afficionados.....

K208 - bar 23 and bar 25.

Am I right in thinking that in both of these bars, the notes played by the right hand do not actually add up?
Its the first beat that interests me.

Bar 23 - first 5 notes right hand
Bar 25 - first 6 notes right hand.

I'm using the Kirkpatrick, Schirmer edition.
I'd be grateful for any thoughts! (polite ones!!)

[Steve Hopwood]

Is it possible to scan the page and put it up as in image here, then we can all have a look?

If you have a look at the Mozart K397 D minor Fantasy bar 53, there is a similar thing. Beat: 1 is an ornamented dotted crotchet semi quaver; 2 a quaver quaver rest; 3 a & 4 are demi-semiquaver diminished broken chord. Then there is a four-an-a-halfth beat consisting of a semi and a pused semi rest.

Maybe they couldn't count back in ancient times ;D

Steve

[petite joueuse]

Well now, there's a challenge for me, Steve! I will endeavour to scan and insert the offending bars into a message (huge technical challenge for me - makes actually playing Scarlatti sound easy by comparison).

But can't do it tonight - too mush work to do for tomorrow.
Will try to scan etc on Friday.
Watch this space.....................

[Steve Hopwood]

I bet I am not the only one looking forward to this.

[petite joueuse]

OK. I give up! I've scanned the score. Now what do I do? How do I insert an image!
(...........shrivels up in a corner! At school people think I'm an IT expert, but its all a scam!!)

[petite joueuse]

petitejoueuse said:

OK. I give up! I've scanned the score. Now what do I do? How do I insert an image!
(...........shrivels up in a corner! At school people think I'm an IT expert, but its all a scam!!)

OK Here goes....




Yeah! It worked! (It's only taken me all evening to figure it out!)

And now....
I await your thoughts, comments and helpful insight........
K208 - bar 23 and bar 25.

Am I right in thinking that in both of these bars, the notes played by the right hand do not actually add up?
Its the first beat that interests me.

Bar 23 - first 5 notes right hand
Bar 25 - first 6 notes right hand.

[Steve Hopwood]

Woooooooooooo. Well done. How did you do it?

It seems clear that this as a clumsy attempt to write out what Scarlatti originally placed as a turn in between a dotted quaver A and semiquaver B. The written realisation is unplayable as it does not add up - you are not dreaming there.

I would play this as a standard dotted-note turn - although if that concerned about authenticity, I would also get hold of an Urtext ed.

Any other offers, folks?

[anacrusis]

I would agree - these are poorly written-out turns - interesting that neither adds up, and they're different from each other!
I second the Urtext idea, too.
Scarlatti's one of my favourite composers...wish I could play some.

[petite joueuse]

Thanks for your thoughts, Steve & anacrusis! I'm glad its not a case of me not knowing my hemis from my demis AND being hopeless at maths!

Interesting that you both suggest Urtext investigations. In Kirkpatrick's weighty book he actually prints a facsimile of the Parma text of this precise section - and his own edition (i.e. the Kirkpatrick edition) follows EXACTLY what the Parma manuscript says!! The dot after the A semiquaver is definitely there (not just a squashed spider on the parchment!!), and the beaming is identical to the stuff I've pasted (hope you're impressed!!) above.

So then the question must be....did Scarlatti write it like this? deliberately....or after one too many glasses of Rioja? and then why has Kirkpatrick not edited it?
Ultimately, I need to take a decision about how to play it (I'm aiming for quickly so that no-one has time to debate if I was right or not............)

Love this stuff!!

[Steve Hopwood]

Here's a thought. Scarlatti composed over 500 of these works, in addition to goodness knows how many works in other genres. He would have been in a hurry. It is possible he simply got the maths wrong but never looked at the piece again.

Schubert was a great example of what happens when a great composer has a lot to get down. I once worked out what his average daily output was, by dividing the number of days of his active composing life into the number of works he produced. I do not remember the figurs, but it was something ridiculously huge like 5 works a day.

I worked it out after listening to a radio interview in which a pianist pointed out that Schubert heard few of his works performed - he did not have the time. Inspiration-composition-next, sort of thing.

I assume Scarlatti was the same - he too had a prolific output. Maybe his copyist just got it wrong because there really was a squished fly on the page. No idea, but it is good fun to speculate.

[petite joueuse]

Yes, Steve - that sounds plausible enough, but he wrote all 555 for the Queen who was, by all accounts, a pretty proficient keyboard-player herself. I thought she would have had the decency to point out to him that his maths didn't add up....or maybe she was totally in awe of him....or maybe she hadn't done Grade 5 theory!

[anacrusis]

Some of the baroque things I get to play have written-out ornaments which also don't fit mathematically- for instance a Corelli violin sonata with ornamentation which was contemporary to Corelli. I wonder if the real aim of the way this is written is to show a quick turn with the last two notes rather faster than the rest of it? Sort of "fit it into the beat, guys, but finish the turn in a little rush"

[petite joueuse]

I like your approach, anacrusis!
Would it stand up to grilling in a Dip Viva?

[anacrusis]

;D I hope it would!

I didn't have a viva for the ATCL, but did get a comment on "nicely-placed ornaments" for that Corelli, so it must've sounded musically convincing. Although I started practising them by counting obsessively, I soon ditched that approach for the "squash it in somehow" one, and it seems to have paid off.You could also add in Steve's bit about writing tons in a hurry...

*thinks she may have recorded a bit of it somewhere*

[petite joueuse]

I think I'll go for the squashing technique! (Though teacher insists on counting everything manically! - Actually she relented a bit today - at my suggestion I'm putting my Dip pieces to one side for a while and playing some other stuff instead - I never thought she would agree....)