Chopin - rubato

[princessmoose]

How much rubato when playing Chopin's music is "acceptable"?

I have just been listening to a recording of a Mazurka by Biret and there's hardly a steady pulse, it's pulled about all over the place, is this normal?

[petite joueuse]

Good question....but there is no easy answer.
Personally I like a bit of rubato, but I have a recording by Daniel Barenboim which I LOATHE, as his "interpretation" of rubato makes him sound hesitant, almost as if he's playing from memory and keeps forgetting what comes next - most bizarre!

Doesn't "rubato" mean "robbed/stolen "? To me this sounds as if the slowing down has to be made up at some other point (robbing from one bar to pay back in another??). I'm not sure if/how this actually works in practice, but surely there has to be some "steady pulse" somewhere.
I recently played bassoon in Rhapsody in Blue. There was a fairly crucial entry, which to my shame I missed....simply because it was after some ridiculous number of bars rest when the piano soloist was doing his "bit". I was clear in my mind how many bars to count, but his excessive "rubato" made it well-nigh impossible to count the bars - it was as if the bar-lines had disappeared - there was no perceptible downbeat (and the conductor helpfully gave up conducting during the piano solo!).
Now, OK so that was Gershwin, but I really don't think Chopin would have been happy with that - I just can't see him being that woolly.

I'll be interested to read what others have to say on this point...

[princessmoose]

Don't get me wrong, I like rubato in a piece, I use it myself, but I just thought it was quite interesting to hear the recording I did and to find it used a fair bit. I should probably if I get the chance find some recordings of the same piece but by different pianists to see the difference.

[Steve Hopwood]

Rubato is a natural part of any music - so much so that is is usually only noticed if it is absent or overdone.

There are stylistic constraints, so that we would normally indulge ourselves far more in romantic music than in that from the baroque or classical; there are exceptions, I know, but I am generalising. The most common rubato comes when taking a little extra time at the end of a phrase; a lot of music demands this and sounds uncomfortable when it is missing.

Doesn't "rubato" mean "robbed/stolen "? To me this sounds as if the slowing down has to be made up at some other point (robbing from one bar to pay back in another??). I'm not sure if/how this actually works in practice, but surely there has to be some "steady pulse" somewhere.

It is best to get away from this definition. Taken to its logical conclusion, this would mean that a little 'give' at the end of a phrase would need to be matched by a little 'take' at the start of the next, with comical results.

Rubato is all about allowing the music the freedom of tempo that it needs in order to sound good. Some pieces need more than others; some composers output lends itself to more than others.

How much rubato when playing Chopin's music is "acceptable"?

Bucket-loads. Playing Chopin's music to a strict beat crucifies it.

I have just been listening to a recording of a Mazurka by Biret and there's hardly a steady pulse, it's pulled about all over the place, is this normal?

Yes, although some players will feel more than others. Whether we like the interpretation comes down to our own taste. Although Chopin's Mazurkas and Waltzes have dance titles, they were never intended as dance pieces. They were usually improvised in the salons of the wealthy, in the style of the dances that bear their title. They are romantic miniatures - pieces in free form intended for performance to an adoring audience who listened, rather than danced to them.

I hope all this makes sense; I am slightly hung-over today. ;D

[Dulciana]

When i was younger and my teacher tried to get me to understand rubato (I always having been a very rhythmic person!) it suddenly struck me that there was a hold-back on the approach to an 'important' bit. So I said, "OIC, so you take your time over the important bits and play it as if you're scared of getting those bits wrong?"

Several years later, that still sort of holds!

[schubertiad]

I remember reading that the rubato fashionable in Chop's day was a metronomic left hand, with a very free right hand, which would sound pretty strange nowadays. Since modern practise is so different, it's impossible to talk about right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable. My old teacher used to stress Chopin's classical side, so that has led me to be a bit sparing with the rubato. Anyway, i think as a general rule too little rubato is far better than the slushy, mushy mess which you hear so much of today.

[Steve Hopwood]

schubertiad said:

I remember reading that the rubato fashionable in Chop's day was a metronomic left hand, with a very free right hand...

I have read this as well. I do not see how it would be possible. A metronomic LH would result in a rigid pulse, the very thing that would make a lot of pieces sound rushed and breathless.

Since modern practise is so different, it's impossible to talk about right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable. My old teacher used to stress Chopin's classical side, so that has led me to be a bit sparing with the rubato. Anyway, i think as a general rule too little rubato is far better than the slushy, mushy mess which you hear so much of today.

This is the kind of playing that I label in my mind as 'mannered' and it drives me nuts. It usually happens when the player is over-interpreting rather than responding to the natural ebb and flow of tempi within the phrases.

A pet hate of mine amongst over-indulgers in rubato is playing the left hand slightly before the right. I loathe that, especially when it is done a lot but it goes to highlight how much rubato is a personal taste. A lot of renowned, respected pianists do this, so there is clearly a place for it. Still makes me want to chew the carpet, mind ;D

[Dulciana]

Re Steve's last paragraph:

Oops - I think I might be inclined to do this on the odd occasion - only the odd one, mind! It seems to want to happen when there is a rising LH arpeggiated chord pending. The bass notes just wants to get in first! But I'll be going to think about this now....I wasn't really aware of it till it was mentioned.

[schubertiad]

Re steve's last comment: I agree with dulciana, i find there is certainly a time and a place for leading with the bass, but not too often. I have a recording of Andras Schiff butchering the e minor prelude (as he does most of them) by playing the bass note early EVERY time.
Strangely, I noticed recently that Yvgeny Kissin has the opposite tendency, often leading with the right hand first. I'm not sure what possesses him to do it (it sounds awful) but I've heard him do it in lots of pieces.

[petite joueuse]

Yes, I've heard this "play the LH just before the RH" quite a bit - in fact a teacher I admire immensely insisted that this sort of playing was complusory - she said Chopin DEFINITELY played it that way. So I've tried.....and failed miserably. It just sounds WRONG (to my ears...for what they're worth!).
I keep going back to my Barenboim recording to try to work out why I really don't like it - and I *think* its because it doesn't sound "clean" and polished. There is something quite sparkling about Chopin's music, and I think careful use of rubato and conscious placing of notes can enhance this clarity.......but it can easily go wrong!

I'm fascinated by the fact that we (amateur) musicians can feel so strongly about how the "professionals" play these pieces we know so well........but its not misplaced arrogance on our behalf, but rather a passion for the music. We WANT to play it so it sounds beautiful, and as listeners we want to hear that beauty on recordings too.

Those of you who frequent TOP - do a search on Andras Schiff. Someone posted (quite a while ago) a link to some podcasts of Schiff discussing Beethoven's Sonatas. His interpretation of the Moonlight is really interesting - about 10 times FASTER than I've ever heard it played (by amateurs OR professionals!). .

[Steve Hopwood]

schubertiad said:

Re steve's last comment: I agree with dulciana, i find there is certainly a time and a place for leading with the bass, but not too often. I have a recording of Andras Schiff butchering the e minor prelude (as he does most of them) by playing the bass note early EVERY time.

By coincidence, I use the middle of this piece to demonstrate how bad playing sounds when the hands are not together.

Good thing my lot are not prone to listening to recordings of Chopin Preludes played by AS. ;D

[Steve Hopwood]

petitejoueuse said:

I'm fascinated by the fact that we (amateur) musicians can feel so strongly about how the "professionals" play these pieces we know so well........but its not misplaced arrogance on our behalf, but rather a passion for the music. We WANT to play it so it sounds beautiful, and as listeners we want to hear that beauty on recordings too.

I don't think this is misplaced arrogance either. Great music allows many different interpretations; some we will enjoy and some we will not. As a pro pianist, I may listen to playing with a deeper understanding of technique, style, form etc than an amateur, but my response to the performance is just as subjective as anybody else's.

[petite joueuse]

Have just had a listen to Biret's rendition of the E minor Prelude, and again the rubato is so pronounced the piece sounds hesitant - almost at the start of every bar I feel like I'm waiting too long to hear the first note - bizarre!
Have also just listened to Rubenstein playing a Nocturne. There is definite rubato, yet the piece flows - there's constant movement, rather than the hiccups I keep hearing elsewhere! Lovely!

[schubertiad]

I know exactly what you mean about too many hesitiations. You often hear players build the tension with a rit, and then frustrate the expectations by leading not to a louder bit, but softer bit. (I hope you know what I mean. I'm sure I do...) It is really effective if done once in a while but if it happens each time it completely loses its effect, as you come to expect it. It's like the boy who cried wolf - after a while you switch off, and when it does finally lead to a genuine increase in tension, you've stopped caring.

[petite joueuse]

I think we should thank Nat for starting such an interesting thread!