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Post by Trebor on Oct 13, 2006 22:19:36 GMT
In Baroque music, it's often stated (or at least suggested) that quavers should be played staccato, or at least fairly detached. First question, out of general curiosity, is why is that the case? Is it another case of the piano trying to imitate the harpsichord? Second, should all quavers be detached? Or only some of them? The pieces in question are Bach's Prelude and Fugue in G major (No. 15 from WTC I). The prelude has notes in the back saying they should be played stacatto and in a lively way except for certain bars. Which I think I can follow. But the fugue doesn't have corresponding information, and I'm sure what to do. There are passages where 2 or more voices are playing quavers, should they be stacatto or should they not; should the quavers in the subject be detached, etc., etc., and I have no idea what to do. I was wondering if there was a more 'correct' way to do it, or whether it was just stylistic. I hope that makes sense, I may be talking rubbish.  |
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Post by anacrusis on Oct 13, 2006 22:35:43 GMT
He's asking for the disjunct quavers in staccato - if it's the Tovey edition you've got? Yes, it would make sense to detach those, though I'd still not do that too aggressively if I could play that prelude. You could use the same general principle in the fugue - being more detached where the jumps are bigger; reading the score, I would "feel" the music as a gigue, and give it the corresponding slight limp in quaver articulation...again, if I could play the damn thing.  It looks like fun, with all those slow melodies against faster figurations in one hand. Imitation of the harpsichord? Maybe to some extent, but some of it has to do with the idiom of the time, and in the counterpoint of the fugue, simply helps to show the various strands off to their mutual advantage. *moves over to make room for proper keyboard players* |
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 14, 2006 11:48:14 GMT
There is a general rule of thumb when playing baroque keyboard music: play the short notes long and the long notes short. Translated, this means that in a quick movement, semiquavers are going to 'short' ie quick notes, so they are legato. Quavers might be either, depending on the speed, so might be detached or not. Crotchets and above are 'long' notes, and so are detached, typically to half their value. All this is then subject to interpretation and context. For example, I apply this principle to the second movement of the E minor Toccata on the recordings website. This is a fugato (contrapuntal, fugue-like but without the full-blown exposition). I like gently detached quavers throughout this movement; I play it quite slowly and so quavers become 'long'. Caz also plays this piece and hates how I do it; she is unable to listen to it as a result. Applying this principle to your Bach, the RH triplets in the prelude limit the speed at which you can play it, so the quavers are 'long'. The quicker you play the movement, the shorter this staccato can become. In bars such as 5, you might want to try legato quavers as these are melodic rather than merely accompaniment. Equally, you might prefer staccato - it all depends on how you like them. Looking at the fugue, your treatment of the quavers will depend on your tempo and concept of the movement. I don't play this piece but I can read it. Mentally, I can hear quite a slow tempo in which the movement is given an expressive treatment. The quavers are legato. Alternatively, I can hear a performance that travels at warp speed; the quavers are light and very short. None of this accords with the principle I outlined above, but there are always exceptions. Baroque composers included sparse performance directions - often none at all. This was an age in which musicians were expected to be improvisers; when playing other composers' music, they were expected to interpret in their own style. From all this it follows that 'good' playing is that which sounds good; bad playing does not. Even that is subject to interpretation. Trebs, it is worthwhile bearing in mind that commentators express an opinion; performers offer interpretations. It is always possible to differ with the opinion and dislike the interpretation. You can learn by seeking the opinions of those of us who have been around longer, played more, have more experience - our opinions are informed and shaped by all that we have learned. That is what they remain, though; opinions. Steve  |
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Post by caz on Oct 14, 2006 13:13:14 GMT
Ah, I see I have been mentioned already...  I was about to say - don't listen to Steve - he overdoes his staccato when he plays Bach  (Is it heresy to suggest that the great Steve Hopwood is wrong in any way?  ) |
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 14, 2006 13:38:37 GMT
Ah, I see I have been mentioned already... I was about to say - don't listen to Steve - he overdoes his staccato when he plays Bach Ignore this comment, Trebs. Caz probably can't articulate clearly enough to do staccato ;D ;D ;D One rises above such mundane matters and continues to contemplate lofty, um, er, thingamybobs. |
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Post by Trebor on Oct 14, 2006 13:44:39 GMT
Well that really clears things up... But seriously, thanks - that's helpful  |
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Post by caz on Oct 14, 2006 17:00:28 GMT
Ah, I see I have been mentioned already... I was about to say - don't listen to Steve - he overdoes his staccato when he plays Bach Ignore this comment, Trebs. Caz probably can't articulate clearly enough to do staccato ;D ;D ;D Steve clearly has trouble with his legato hence the need for so much detatchment... |
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 14, 2006 17:20:41 GMT
Ignore this comment, Trebs. Caz probably can't articulate clearly enough to do staccato ;D ;D ;D Steve clearly has trouble with his legato hence the need for so much detatchment... Well you were right but guess what? Today I found this peddle thingy that makes the sound last, so now I can play smoothly ;D |
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Post by caz on Oct 14, 2006 17:27:44 GMT
Well you were right but guess what? Today I found this peddle thingy that makes the sound last, so now I can play smoothly ;D Oh well done - if you need any more tips don't hesitate to PM me... |
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 14, 2006 17:41:41 GMT
Well you were right but guess what? Today I found this peddle thingy that makes the sound last, so now I can play smoothly ;D Oh well done - if you need any more tips don't hesitate to PM me... * gazes in rapt admiration * |
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Post by caz on Oct 14, 2006 18:12:58 GMT
Oh well done - if you need any more tips don't hesitate to PM me... * gazes in rapt admiration * Correct response |
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 14, 2006 20:50:04 GMT
* gazes in rapt admiration * Correct response One knows one's place. Supporting the rug the dog sleeps on. |
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Post by Dulciana on Oct 15, 2006 12:19:02 GMT
Somebody (I've no idea who) once said that the notes in Bach's keyboard music should be like "a string of pearls". My personal taste is that I don't like it too legato; I like clarity, and I think the music usually has more vitality if it's non-legato.
Steve - I've moved onto the first movement of the Italian C rather than the third - it's coming back pretty well, but be prepared for the odd HELP here within the next few weeks! I can manage the trills better than before, except for coming off the end of them well.
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 15, 2006 20:48:37 GMT
Somebody (I've no idea who) once said that the notes in Bach's keyboard music should be like "a string of pearls". My personal taste is that I don't like it too legato; I like clarity, and I think the music usually has more vitality if it's non-legato. Steve - I've moved onto the first movement of the Italian C rather than the third - it's coming back pretty well, but be prepared for the odd HELP here within the next few weeks! I can manage the trills better than before, except for coming off the end of them well. Trill help at the ready. I have some tips, if you are having some bother. |
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Post by Dulciana on Oct 16, 2006 11:03:41 GMT
Am I right to be playing them as simple semiquavers - the LH being quavers, but pretty fast? I can work in the turn - if that's the right term (I'm not good with terms...) - at the start, and can keep it going fhythmically reasonably well, but am not sure how to end. At the minute, I'm just stopping the trill short in time to get the next notes in at the right place! It keeps going, but is far from ideal.
The bit I'm struggling with most here is the bit I always struggled with - bars 121 and 122! It's the fingering and the held notes, and the fact that I still have to slow right down to get it all in! Since I've given up any notion I had of actually using this for a dip, I am tempted to just compromise here; my audience is unlikely to know the difference! (Says she, hopefully...)
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