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Post by princessmoose on Oct 5, 2006 11:29:59 GMT
Before anyone suggests I'm posting this to stir up an argument - I AM NOT.
I read something yesterday in an article saying that to be able to sight read well, you need to be able to hear what is on the page in your head and be able to sing it. I really don't see why. I'm a good sight reader and CAN hear what is on the page yet I can't pitch it to save my life. What do others think? Is there that strong a link between the two?
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Post by caz on Oct 5, 2006 11:44:26 GMT
I do think you need to be able to _hear_ it in your head. It makes no difference whether or not you can actually _sing_ it though as far as I can see. I just look at a page and think - oh, it goes dum dum de dum twiddly whatever - and I play something which goes like that. Simple as that! Maybe I should write a book...
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Post by possom on Oct 5, 2006 12:40:19 GMT
For me definitely not. I am a very good sight-reader (on all instruments that I play ) yet I haven't a clue how something will sound until I play it. That's always been my trouble, people say i'm musically talented, but I really think that my brain is just good at deciphering the musical code otherwise I would be able to improvise and hear chords etc. as well.
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 5, 2006 12:43:50 GMT
I think it is more likely that good sight-readers can also hear the score internally because they have natural ability. In my experience, untalented lumps cannot sight-read, memorise, play musically or even accurately. ;D Sight-reading is a memory process, really. Good sight-readers are reading ahead - a long way in a simple score. The memory is working on two levels: it is remembering the notes it has read whilst processing the stuff the eyes are looking at; it is directing the fingers to press the keys\cover the holes\move the slide\depress the valves etc to produce the correct notes. The best sight-reader I know is John Wilson, formerly head accompaniment honcho at RNCM. He once told me that he does not consciously think about the stuff he is reading; he wants the reading and playing to happen without interference from conscious mental processing. I can both hear a tonal piano score in my head and pitch vocally, yet am only a modest sight-reader. I accept John Wilson's assertion that the less conscious mental processing goes on the more fluent the reading will be; my conclusion is that the memory is vital but the ability to hear internally\pitch externally has nothing to do with sight-reading. Quick edit: not calling you an untalented lump, Possom, I promise ;D ;D ;D
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Post by sweetpea on Oct 5, 2006 13:48:14 GMT
I'm taking a musicianship class which basically deals with ear training and sightsinging. In the class we have to be able to hear the pitches or intervals in our heads then sing them in front of the class. It's really not too bad, even for some of the ones who really can't sing. I think it might be the way my prof approaches it, instead of jumping into something difficult and making people feel uncomfortable we are going slowly and tries to accomodate peoples vocal range as well. I can see how it would be very uncomfortable for non-singers though. I always hated aurals in the ABRSM tests, (almost as much as scales ) and I have no problem singing. I just wasn't prepared for them.
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Post by anacrusis on Oct 5, 2006 14:58:01 GMT
I don't think they are linked of necessity - I could sightread tolerably well ages before I could hear music in my head on scanning the music, and I've often said before that the ability to pitch vocally what is being read is a different skill in any case - it has as much to do with being able to control vocal musculature as with being able to "hear" music in one's head. Being able to hear internally what the dots are saying is certainly a useful skill, though. You can tell when your fingers have gone wrong! Oh, and Steve - I can't memorise for toffee, despite being able to sightread!
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Post by possom on Oct 5, 2006 14:59:48 GMT
Quick edit: not calling you an untalented lump, Possom, I promise ;D ;D ;D It's ok Steve I sight-read Rach's 2nd concerto last weekend
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Post by Dulciana on Oct 5, 2006 15:22:46 GMT
I can't improvise, I can't memorise (much) and I can't sing - but I'm a reasonable sight-reader. But could I sight-read accurately if I had earplugs in? Not sure! There's definitely an aural element there somewhere - hearing provides feedback as to whether you're right or not, and that affects how you move forward - but I think sight-reading is more of a mechanical/coordination thing - how much your eye can take in in a flash, and how quickly you can tranfer that to your fingers.
Where timing is concerned, I can hear pretty accurately in my head how something will sound, even if it's fairly complicated, but unless it's pretty simple I've usually got to play it before I can be sure what the intervals and harmony will sound like.
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 5, 2006 20:23:40 GMT
It's ok Steve I sight-read Rach's 2nd concerto last weekend Hehe. That's my sort of possom. ;D
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 5, 2006 20:33:04 GMT
Oh, and Steve - I can't memorise for toffee, despite being able to sightread! I am not surprised. Sightreading is about short term memory; memorising pieces is about long term memory. Good memory people like me often have good memories because we have to spend so long decoding the score that we memorise it as we go along. Anything I can read quickly takes a long time to go into the memory. Can't really win either way, can I? Hey ho. I do have one former student who both reads easily and memorises. I hate him. Don't really ;D
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Post by petite joueuse on Oct 5, 2006 21:31:07 GMT
So do you think our memory changes over time, Steve? As a young teenager I could rattle off loads of pieces from memory, with apparent ease....but now I can barely play anything without music in front of me. (But at the same time, my sight-reading would appear to be imrpoving!!)
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Post by princessmoose on Oct 5, 2006 21:42:28 GMT
Thanks for the replies.
Speaking of memory, I can't memorise at all, I'm hopeless at it gah!
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 6, 2006 7:17:40 GMT
So do you think our memory changes over time, Steve? As a young teenager I could rattle off loads of pieces from memory, with apparent ease....but now I can barely play anything without music in front of me. (But at the same time, my sight-reading would appear to be imrpoving!!) Everything else does, so I suppose it is logical to expect memory to change as our brains change. As working as an accompanist forced my sight-reading to improve, so did my ability to memorise new repertoire degrade. I put this down to needing to spend less time on decoding the score; this was a large part of my memorising process. My hazy understanding is that using a part of our brain causes that part to develop, so the bit of mine that processes sight-reading has developed at the expense of the memory area.
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Post by petite joueuse on Oct 6, 2006 9:27:09 GMT
As working as an accompanist forced my sight-reading to improve, so did my ability to memorise new repertoire degrade. I put this down to needing to spend less time on decoding the score; this was a large part of my memorising process. Absolutely! When I was able to play loads from memory, I did little "sight-reading" as such, other than in exam situations - but as an older teenager I was asked more and more to accomany people (often at short notice), and I played in church (and couldn't be bothered to practise, so I developed the ability to play any of the songs in the book at the drop of a hat). But, I would LOVE to be able to play something well from memory. Do you think its possible to re-train my brain to play from memory, without detracting from my sight-reading skills. Are the 2 skills mutually exclusive? (Have we got any brain experts here?)
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Post by Steve Hopwood on Oct 6, 2006 9:35:16 GMT
Do you think its possible to re-train my brain to play from memory? I use analysis to help much more than I used to - structure, key and harmonic analysis mostly. This means I think about the music more, which in turn helps the memory. Whenever I have a moment that is prone to memory lapse, I latch on to some little thing that I can concentrate on as the passage approaches. It can be anything; "Up a third"; "Chord Vb"; "Weird chromaticy bit" - that sort of thing.
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